Co-review: Rosemary and Rue by Seanan McGuire

[helloladies]

October "Toby" Daye, a changeling who is half human and half fae, has been an outsider from birth. After getting burned by both sides of her heritage, Toby has denied the Faerie world, retreating to a "normal" life. Unfortunately for her, the Faerie world has other ideas...

The murder of Countess Evening Winterrose pulls Toby back into the fae world. Unable to resist Evening's dying curse, which binds her to investigate, Toby must resume her former position as knight errant and renew old alliances. As she steps back into fae society, dealing with a cast of characters not entirely good or evil, she realizes that more than her own life will be forfeited if she cannot find Evening's killer. (source)

Spoilers.

Jodie: Can I just say I think we are pretty much geniuses for having read the first October Daye book in October. *fistbump* Acing this review already.

Renay: We're awesome. Does this also mean we need to read and review one of these a month until we catch up? We could do it, because the series is seriously that long. We'd be good until the ninth book, which comes out in 2015. I don't know how I keep letting myself get yanked into super long series. I can definitely pin this one on you, though! Cue the piling on of literary guilt. ;)

The first question to ask is if we both liked the book! I liked the book. It was definitely first novel territory, but yesterday I re-read a story where a character gets turned into a werepineapple and loved it, so really, I shouldn't even be able to use that as a reaction anymore. It was tough getting past the beginning, where everything is horrible and there's loss and what amounts to time travel. No joke, I was having Steve Rogers level feels about October before I reached the end of two chapters.

Jodie: Of course you were — it was inevitable!

I liked Rosemary and Rue too, and am really glad Meghan persistently recommended it to me. You were right Meghan, this book was awesome and I look forward to reading more of the series (maybe one every two months until we catch up?). I enjoyed two things in particular; the creation of October's character and the playfulness and invention of the world building. So, maybe we could start by talking about those two aspects in a bit more depth?

Renay: Well, I won't lie and say I liked the creation of October's character, because way to rip my heart out, McGuire. There's so much loss so quickly for October, and she just keeps pushing through only to encounter more loss and hardship. But while she was beaten down, she was wry about it and had an excellent sense of humor about the various situations she ends up in. Which, of course, brings us to the world building. My disclaimer about the world building is that most stories containing faeries have never met the likes of my brain, which can barely remember real political alliances and systems without looking crap up, much less fantasy ones. It gets even worse with faerie related things. So I was really pleasantly surprised when here they were clear and easy to follow, and each one distinct enough that after it was introduced I wouldn't be lost when it was referenced or came up again. This might be because I cheated a bit — I've read some short stories set in this universe, so I was familiar with Tybalt, and came in liking him and the Court of Cats. Probably I got more excited than I should have when he showed up, and he and October were at odds. My favorite kind of relationship. So at that point, the book had its grip on me. There was no turning back. :D

Jodie: Yeah, the opening is rough emotionally, but I was thinking of the way Toby's life falls out after the fish pond. First off, I felt like Toby was so different from any other fantasy character I've read. She works a low paid job, and struggles economically. She's a mother, but estranged from her child. Her childhood is informed by a criminal and abusive background. She may not be unique (nothing's unique now, right?), but she's definitely part of a small character grouping.

I also felt like she was a distinct character with a background and life that had been thought about deeply by her author, and which had potential to be developed even further. I thought her personality and life was outlined so deftly, and I had a real flavour of her life within a couple of chapters, which is partly down to Mcguire's choice to show Toby working at the Safeway in the first chapter of the book. That choice not only gives the reader details which inform our view of Toby's new life, but it sets up a particular tone for the novel; we know Toby's life isn't going to be all fairy glamour and we feel the weight of her gloom in the way Mcguire describes the setting of this particular job. As you said, Toby has such a wry voice that there's a real, particular personality in her narrative.

And the book releases new details about her all the time, teasing the reader on with the promise that there's always more to learn about Toby — I particularly enjoyed finding out that she's a titled Knight. Obviously, this being a first novel, there's so much that can be revealed. Maybe, as the series goes, on there won't be so many surprising new details or new revelations will come to feel a bit forced, but I hope we'll always be learning new things about Toby. No matter how long you know somebody there's always new stuff to learn and I think the same should be true of characters.

Renay: Here's where I reveal dramatically that first person narratives aren't my favorite, and actually leave me feeling farther away from the character and less likely to feel like I know them or am able to empathize with them (I am a weirdo). Although Toby is brilliantly introduced and her socioeconomic situations — both those she has no choice over and the ones she's chosen to enforce for self-care — draw us an immediately distinct picture of the world she lives it, compassion came slower for me. I'm curious if that was incidental to the fact that it seems like she's deliberately trying to keep people at a distance, and I kept taking her signals to back off? ;)

It took until the situation in the car on the bridge — you'll know the one, it was epic — for me to really feel like, "Oh, I LIKE you and we're going to be friends, Toby Daye!" Apparently I like my heroes to be reckless adventurers? GO FIGURE.

Jodie: Since you brought him up, let's talk about Tybalt next. There were so many exciting fairy concepts stuffed into this book, but the idea of The Court of Cats was one of my favourites. And, like you, I fell for Tybalt and Toby's combative relationship. I read the first chapter of the next book, A Local Habitation, and apparently they go drinking together! I really want them to remain buds, but my suspicious eyes is already picking out the guys who might be Toby's future love interests and I think he's probably one of them? I don't yet know how I feel about that.

Renay: My preference for Tybalt actually ties back into your point about how Toby is revealed to us throughout the book. I liked Tybalt and Toby together because I love antagonistic relationships where the people are all "we don't like each other" but in reality the respect they have for each other's skills and talent overrides any hard feelings for specific periods of time, and as the book progressed to becomes clear there information there we don't know yet. Plus, Tybalt's treatment of Toby allows her to reveal really fascinating things about both herself and her work before the fishy time travel.

I wouldn't mind Tybalt and Toby being closer, but my desire for them to keep snarking each other overrides my desire for them to bone each other, so we might be on the same page there. ;)

What I liked more than Toby or Tybalt, though, was the world Toby ran around in. I guess this is a feature of urban fantasy? It gave off a run-down vibe, grim and dark and fairly dangerous but didn't ram it in your face, which the last urban fantasy series I tried did (sorry, Harry Dresden, we're not friends). Then when visiting the faerie realms, everything felt brighter and less gritty and awful, but it also felt like RED ALERT GET OUT RIGHT NOW TOBY, which was very nicely done. The world building here was just really great — I wish I hadn't waited so long to try this series.

Jodie: I agree about the worldbuilding. I'm a big fan of authors using dark settings and nature in sympathy to signal the tone of their stories and their character's emotions, so I tend to love spending time in, what I guess I'd call, grimy urban fantasy/SFF worlds. I guess this sort of world appeals to the British side of my media geek personality :P I grew up with the darkness of Dickens and Dracula and the Brontes in the background (so many television adaptations even before I got anywhere near the books) and lived with the kind of British weather you see strewn throughout those books. The gothic is such a huge and attractive part of my media history that any stories which use similar kinds of devices do tend to drag me in.

However, I have a hard time with some of the darker elements modern gothic sometimes includes, like explicit, predictable, violence. I think my upper limit with this kind of gritty written world is Kraken and my upper limit with visual media is way lower. I like feeling creeped out, and I can take some violence, but my brain is too good at throwing up detailed pictures of more extreme violence when I least need them for me to enjoy the squirmier side of genre like grimdark. So, like you, I enjoyed the balance that this novel struck in its levels of menace. I was often afraid for the characters a good sign because if I'm afraid it means I've connected with them) but I never felt like I would have to quit the book.

I also agree that 'run-down vibe' feels like a feature of urban fantasy. And Rosemary and Rue is part of a PI series, so it probably partly inherits its vibe from the history of crime fiction.

The crime genre is so varied, but I know there's a type of traditional detective story that fills itself with dimly lit alleys and seedy places which give off a sense of menace or decay. I guess they're places that feel like the natural home of crime & criminals if we suspend disbelief and assume that a criminal is always an obviously identifiable gangster or hood. Urban fantasy (and a growing amount of SFF in general) often seems to crossover with PI, detective and police stories, and the seedier, grimmer, back-alley trappings of the crime genre seem to be the ones most typically thrown into this crossover mix. I haven't seen a lot of SFF crime novels that are part of the 'drawing room'/Golden Age crime tradition. Maybe, Gail Carriger and the Newbury & Hobbes novels fit this bill?

Anyway, I like the current crossover trend & long may it continue (which reminds me I should watch more Grimm & Sleepy Hollow.

Renay: eeeee I'm so glad you mentioned Grimm because I think that's an excellent comparison. I would totally recommend Grimm to people who loved this book but wanted a comparable television show. Grimm does a great job balancing these two worlds and how the main character has to inhabit both of them and the conflicts that arise by having to do so. Toby's experiences juggling her identities is a great line through this story that really allows us to see how the other characters relate to her and really contribute to yanking you into a brand new world. Although some of the events made me scratch my head a little. Obviously there will be further books, so questions will be answered, but some of the questions I had that were dropped to the side as Toby tries to solve the mystery before said mystery kills her. That's obviously a good thing (don't die, Toby!). But all the reasons she had closed herself off and was ignoring the faerie world were only vaguely hinted at, like the scene where Toby meets Sylvester and his family. Of course I know it's being set up as the overarching mystery but it felt so disconnected from the other plot, when Tony's entire life is a result of her getting turned into a fish for 14 years and then failing to help Sylvester with saving his family...did you feel weird about how that thread felt a little pushed aside and not dealt with very much at all?

Jodie: A little bit, because Toby's whole motivation for not going back to Shadowed Hills is her shame about failing Sylvester's family, and I imagine it's going to be one of the three big mysteries of the early series (the others being what's up with the Queen of the Mists and how is Rayseline going to tie into later plots). In this book I think that shame, and her inability to make it worse by hearing what happened to Rayseline and Luna while they were gone, keeps her from digging too deeply, but I was surprised she didn't reflect on it a little more. Maybe that was just a consequence of her running to stay alive, but when Toby found out just how screwed up Rayseline was I kind of expected Toby to ask more questions about what happened to Rayseline and Luna while they were gone.

While we're on the subject of Rayseline and Luna, we should definitely talk about the fates of the female characters who aren't Toby. I was super annoyed by one death, even though I could see it coming a couple of chapters in advance, and I'm really sad about how Toby's friendship with Juliet turned out (maybe they'll patch it up in later books?). Women in this series suffered enough trauma & death that I'm going to be concerned for every female character from now on.

Renay: It may be incidental to the genre? I don't read enough urban fantasy, so I don't have even anecdotal data on how the violence and rough times for women compares in other books. I also saw the death in question coming and was like, "ugh, no, why!" On the other hand, if the idea is to get you attached to a character and then rip your heart out with it, mission accomplished.

(I am terrified for upcoming books. I read the nonspoilery reactions to The Winter Long, FRIENDS. I saw the exclamation marks!!!)

I didn't notice it, because the in the urban fantasy I have read, well, women were missing. Here there are a myriad of different types of women, human and fae both, and Toby has complicated relationships with all of them, some positive and others, you know, not. And that's what I took out of the book. Yes, bad things happen to a lot of the women, but well, that's life in a magical world. It's dangerous and you could get hurt, or worse, die.

The question is, would we rather have the reality that women in this world clearly run the gamut of different types of personality who we learn to like and some don't make it through (many do), read a narrative where there are no women so they don't die because they just aren't there (or are introduced just to be death tokens, which is 10,000% more likely), or have a story in which we know for sure they'll never be in danger of more than a KO, and they'll be back on their feet? Knowing us, I think we're definitely on the first option's bandwagon, because the other two feel cheap and like a big "fuck you" to the nature of reality. If the book did nothing else right — and it did tons of stuff right! so this is a weird hypothetical &8212; it managed to invest us in the future of a huge cast of women Toby knows, because by the end we both cared a lot what happened to the people Toby cared for and wanted Toby herself to be okay.

Is "Toby losing people" and being in pain a feature of this series? Because if so, ha ha, sob.

Jodie: I would absolutely prefer to have lots of women in stories than to have none. And I want those stories to be realistic, even if that means some of those women have to die or experience serious trauma. What I find a little annoying is that two female characters, who the reader is urged to care about, die while all the important dude characters (apart from the villain) make it to the end of the book alive. We might say that two is a low total compared to other pieces of media, and it is. We might decide that even though he's a villain (and so generally doomed to die) Devin's death counts as a male death that "counts" and is narratively important enough to stand alongside the deaths of the two female characters. Still, I'd like to talk about the 'surprise' death of Dare to illustrate why I had a hard time letting these deaths go as just part of the realism of a dangerous, magical world.

Dare has a brother, Manuel. Right from the first moment I met Manuel and Dare I was worried for both of them. They both live in such a precarious and abusive situation that they're both always in constant danger from Devin and from the consequences of living in a gangster's world.

This relationship setup — a mixed gender pair of important secondary or side characters who are close to each other and are introduced into the story together — is something we see in many stories. As we've all seen a lot of media, we know, as soon as the two of them are introduced, one of them is going to die before the story finishes. And, because sexism, we know it's generally the female character who dies. As soon as these kind of secondary pairings appear I'm usually already setting up my wall of cynicism to deaden the feels because I KNOW the lady isn't getting out alive. Dare, well, Dare was just so cool I forgot all that all the usual rules apply.

I know there were writerly feelings and logic that went into the decision to kill Dare rather than Manuel, but it doesn't change the fact that her death is still part of a persistent media trend which ends with a dead lady and a guy running around sad but alive. Sure, the world is dangerous and people die, but 98% of the time there's absolutely no reason for it to always be the female half of a fictional pair that dies. Introducing dangerous realism into a story doesn't just mean 'terrible things can and will happen to women the reader cares about' it means 'terrible things can and will happen to everyone the reader cares about'. And yet Manuel lives, Sylvester just wakes up from his madness while two other women remain locked in theirs, and all the main guys, apart from the villain, make it out fine.

I'm sorry, How to Train Your Dragon 2 has just ruined me for this kind of thing. When they killed Hiccup's dad instead of his mother I was SO HAPPY which is not an appropriate reaction. Blame media trends.

Basically, I'm cool with female characters dying if central dudes characters fall as well. I'm cool with terrible things happening to them if central dude characters are taking it hard too. I mean, I qualify both of those statements with 'woah, I would need to see the specifics of what was happening to these women and who they were' but those are my general rules if main female characters have to die. Although, maybe we could all watch Scott & Bailey and then have another discussion about how to keep media realistically dangerous while still keeping all the main women alive? *schemes to try and get people to watch Scott & Bailey*

I say all this with no judgement about how the rest of the already published books in this series might approach male/female pain and death parity. Your prediction that 'Toby constantly losing people' is going to be a theme is probably accurate. And I'm sure male characters who are important to Toby will die throughout the series - we're not looking at a series which will rack up hundreds of dead women. Also, if all the urban fantasy you've read has very few women in it, it's great to see a series which has contains so many women. I absolutely plan to keep reading, especially as this was McGuire's first published novel. Having read four of the books she's published as Mira Grant, it seems she's a writer who is always developing and working things out on the page. I look forward to seeing how this series is going to progress.

Renay: Yes, when considered within the larger sphere of media this book chooses some paths I wouldn't have (no joke, Manuel would've been toast. Sorry, Manuel.) I honestly didn't notice the other instances that pinged you until just now. Once again, cursed by my inability to see patterns! /o\

My trust in McGuire from her writing on the treatment of women in her books is pretty strong that in this case it didn't impact me as badly as it did you, although I see the ways now this particular thread zoomed in on your Women and Girls Dying Horribly peeve. I also didn't really start reading her nonfiction writing about writing until last year, so I'm getting an upgraded perspective from when this book was written — so many years! It's not a minor quibble, but the book is still super readable. We just have to swallow a few cultural leftovers to get to the good parts, right? ;) That's true of any author when you travel far enough into their backlist. The unfortunate thing is when they don't grow and improve, not as writers, but as critics of culture around them.

But based on how much I loved Newsflesh novels as they progressed for their fascinating character dynamics and analysis of the world the characters inhabit, I'm looking forward to moving on with this series a lot to see the ways McGuire improves. I also want to see how the overarching mystery gets solved. This is like one of those terrible to-be-continued Grimm episodes. What happened to Luna and Rayseline? Will Toby and Tybalt antagonize each other some more? What's up with the Luidaeg? Will Toby ever see her daughter again? I NEED TO KNOW THESE THINGS.

Jodie: I absolutely agree about having trust in McGuire's writing & her commitment to always moving forward. P.S. You should read Parasite ASAP.

And, YES, we need to know! I want to know the answers to all those questions and more. Most importantly, will Toby and Julie be friends again? Looks like the first installment of the October Daye series did a solid job of hooking us both. See you back here after A Local Habitation manages to destroys us both emotionally!

Other Reviews
Medieval Bookworm, The Book Smugglers, yours?

Comments

[susanhatedliterature.net]

October Daye! Yay!
I love this series of books, but its weird, because in between reading them I kind of forget how much I enjoyed them, and then go "best book in the series" only to remember suddenly saying the same thing about the previous book :)

As for the Dare thing, well, you know. Stuff and spoilers happen. And then the big thing. And urgh.
So you know, it balances out. Maybe?
Although thinking about it now I do think that the male character close to Toby seem to stick around for longer and stay closer/friends with Toby throughout the series, hmmm, will have to think about that for a while.

So glad you are reading this series!

[rymenhild]

As for the Dare thing, well, you know. Stuff and spoilers happen. And then the big thing. And urgh.
So you know, it balances out. Maybe?

I admire the way you phrased this, because I was considering making a similar comment, and I could not figure out how to say it in a not-actually-spoilery manner.

[susanhatedliterature.net]

:) It's hard to comment on a review sometimes when you know what happens in the next book. Even my interpretations of what actually happened in that book have had to be re-evaluated given events later on. I've just finished a reread of the series up to The Winter Long and I'm hoping I get time to do another one before the next book. Though I doubt I will.

[owlmoose]

As for the Dare thing, well, you know. Stuff and spoilers happen. And then the big thing. And urgh.
So you know, it balances out. Maybe?

What rymenhild said. :)

[renay]

As for the Dare thing, well, you know. Stuff and spoilers happen. And then the big thing. And urgh.

This is what convinced me to go on. That "urgh". I MUST KNOW.

[kass]

OMG, these books, I cannot even. They are so good. They just get better and better. The world-building is fantastic. The characters are marvelous. And the long game, the incredibly thoughtful long plot arc, blows me away. I can say (without being spoilery at all) that the most recent book in the series opens things up in this amazing way which makes clear that she's been planning the big arc from the very beginning of the first book in the series.

[renay]

Oh, this is exciting! I mean, I expected something of that nature, since the series has gone on for so long and I kept catching glimpses of reactions to the latest book. Now I'm excited. >.>

[retsuko]

I love this series (and reading this reminds me that I should grab the latest one.) I was really struck in this book by the tremendous sense of risk--I had no idea if Toby would actually survive, even with the knowledge that there is a series and she is its protagonist. That alone marks it as different from just about any other UF series I've ever read, and from most books in general.

[renay]

Gosh, yes! I no longer trust that authors won't whammy me by killing off the protagonist and replacing them with a secondary character we got to know along the way. Luckily in this case I started the series late and don't have to torture myself for at least seven more books. >.>

[ravengown]

/slowly adds these to my to-read list.

[renay]

As soon as I finished this book the rest of them went on the ever growing TBR list so yep, *fistbump of solidarity*

[ravengown]

Hahaha |D My to-read list on Goodreads isn't as long as my read list. Yet.

... It's getting to be a close thing, though.

[owlmoose]

I'm glad you're both enjoying these, and I look forward to your thoughts on the rest of the series!

I nodded along with a lot of the things you said above, but particularly regarding the setting. One of my greatest pleasures in reading this series is experiencing the ways in which McGuire reinvents the San Francisco Bay Area, which is where I live. The familiar become dark and mysterious and strange, and yet that familiarity is still there. It works so well.

But, okay, renay, a werepineapple?

[renay]

KJ, IS THIS KINK SHAMING? :P

Listen, it's an adorable story, okay? IT'S SUPER CUTE.

[umadoshi]

But based on how much I loved Newsflesh novels

*happy wriggles* GEORGIA!

*ahem*

The Toby books are fantastic. *^^* Personally I didn't bond that strongly with the first two--in comparison to Seanan's other work, that is; I liked them both fine--but from that point my love ramped up. It's such a great series, and wow, the groundwork she lays is beautifully executed.

So I'd say the fact that you guys enjoyed R&R so much bodes very well indeed for your relationship to the later books!

[renay]

I really do love all the Newsflesh novels. I ACHE SO BADLY for the World War Z version of that universe, written by Mahir Gowda. I WILL JUST KEEP PINING because maybe if I hope hard enough, one day it will happen. *fingers crossed*

I did discover recently that my library doesn't carry any of McGuire's books, though, only her Mira Grant stuff. Downside: no way to shotgun entire series. Upside: won't be left in emotional stupor?

[umadoshi]

As is relatively obvious from my DW, Georgia is one of my most-dearly-beloveds and has my heart forever. And I love pretty much everyone else, too. *^^*

I ACHE SO BADLY for the World War Z version of that universe, written by Mahir Gowda. I WILL JUST KEEP PINING because maybe if I hope hard enough, one day it will happen.

This hadn't occurred to me until you mentioned it, and now I want it too--! ;_; (Oh, Mahir! I love him so dearly.)

I did discover recently that my library doesn't carry any of McGuire's books, though, only her Mira Grant stuff.

And now I'm horrified at your library. :/ Do they have an easy "suggestion for purchase" method? (Our library system does, but the Toronto one doesn't, so I've learned not to assume. O_O)

[renay]

They do have one! But all these books are mass market paperback, and they don't seem very keen on stocking those or replacing them when they get lost? :( The MMP section is very tiny and unloved. I might try, though, by just taking a list in to the help desk. I have to remind myself that other people probably submit huge lists of requests all the time, my eight book request isn't going to annoy anyone. >.>

[susanhatedliterature.net]

I did discover recently that my library doesn't carry any of McGuire's books, though, only her Mira Grant stuff. Downside: no way to shotgun entire series. Upside: won't be left in emotional stupor?

This is the same where I work, but I think it has something to do with publishers over here (Ireland) because when I tried to order the October Daye book in to rectify this error none of our suppliers had them in stock.
I did manage to order Discount Armageddon though.

[renay]

Yeah, like I mentioned to umadoshi above, it's not availability but potentially because my library doesn't seem to really invest in a solid MMP collection. They really like trades and hardcover, which is understandable, since those are more durable. I should give it a shot, at least. BONUS: everyone gets to read them and get sucked in!

[(Anonymous)]

Loved reading your thoughts on this - I can't wait to see what you think of the rest. So much happens. Like others said above. :)

Meghan @ Medieval Bookworm

[bookgazing]

Looking forward to reading them all :)

[renay]

Thanks for staying on her, since she was the sole reason I finally got to this book after it sat on my shelf for a year. ;)